“Chinese Are a Subspecies”

42 Responses

1. adamgn says:

   September 8th, 2010 at 10:42 pm

   Excellent post.

   I’m so glad you said “We are all racist.”

   So true.

2. Ahbid says:

   September 12th, 2010 at 1:49 pm

   Note that the actual interview he says that the Chinese treatment of animals cannot but help people “feel” like they are a “subspecies”. Now you can look at this multiple ways, however, its clear that he didn’t say they were a subspecies but that their actions make them appear to be (in context he meant, they appear that way to many people). Would you disagree that it is often different cultures, actions, and beliefs that other cultures, and individuals in them, react to which helps form their views that those “other” people over there are some how lesser; often due to those differences? I would state his statement may have not been friendly, but i feel it was accurate in the assessment that different cultures, values, and beliefs can often be the driving factors in racism. In this case its one that he himself ponders, becuase that society/people’s actions seem so WRONG (morally or socially) to him that it begs the question in his mind what is so wrong with those people? Are “normal” humans capable of such horrific acts? (I would say yes humans are quite capable of nearly anything, but this is his bias working not mine).

   When looking at what he actually said, his statements are closer to many that you have made. In this case he may partake in some of that bias and he recognizes this. His comment reflects his feelings of racism as well as his recognition that its in some why wrong by using the phrase you “can’t but feel”, which is similar to saying you feel feel this way but shouldn’t or its not reality. (Maybe he was just trying to soften the statement and he is a super racist [his usage not yours], or maybe he did recognize that feeling that way is wrong but still had to ask the question how is it possible that humans act that way. We do not know and cannot know his thoughts, but we do know he is not the kind of guy to pull his punches).

   Just to be fair here is the actual statement he made in in the guardian,
   http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-simon-armitage-interview
   ” And shockingly, on the Chinese: “Did you see the thing on the news about their treatment of animals and animal welfare? Absolutely horrific. You can’t help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies.” ”

   While i disagree, racism is more and more used as its second meaning of discrimination and not solely in stereotyping, difference, etc. From his statement i hardly feel he was being hypocritical.

   You could argue that racism is more than that, but wouldn’t that argument just be “a form of fundamentalism and supremacism where superiority is defined without reason.” (or more accurately stated as a bias, plain and simple). Both uses of the word racism are valid, lets not rebut people based on your preferred usage of the word.

3. Dyske says:

   September 12th, 2010 at 2:47 pm

   Hi Ahbid,

   To your question: “Would you disagree that it is often different cultures, actions, and beliefs that other cultures, and individuals in them, react to which helps form their views that those “other” people over there are some how lesser; often due to those differences?”

   Yes, this is true, and it is exactly because of this that one should not use this as a justification to support your own argument. In essence, you are saying, because of the effect of this prejudice, the anger towards “others” due to cultural differences, ignorance, and misunderstanding are justified. He is essentially saying, “Look at what the Chinese are doing to animals; it’s horrific, uncivilized, barbaric. If you feel that they are a subspecies, I sympathize with you.”

   If I were defending the Chinese, your argument would be valid. I might say something like this: “Dear Westerners, I understand that the way the Chinese people treat animals may look horrific to you, and that you may feel they can’t be the same human beings that you are. But, please consider the fact that cultural differences are indeed deep and profound. What you take for granted as the universal truth are often not the case when you get to know a culture as disparate as the East and the West. So, before you criticize the Chinese, before you react with anger, please first try to learn their culture, values, history, and beliefs. At least as much as they know about your culture…”

   In this example, the victim is trying to forgive the unjust feeling of his critic. In your example, the critic is justifying his prejudice with the same argument.

   I actually do not have to force anyone to use my definition of “racism”. People can use whatever definition they like. I am only explaining the underlying mechanism of what is often described as “racism”. Many people do not see the connection and think they are unrelated, but you cannot escape the cause and effect that governs those phenomenon that you may or may not call “racism”. If you disagree with the mechanism, then let’s debate it; it would be a different discussion.

   In Morrissey’s mind, he is not a racist because he said so. Fine. So, he is not a “racist” in his own definition. But he is still racially and culturally ignorant and he finds it justifiable to feel that some group of people are a “subspecies” because they do things he happens to morally oppose or disagree with. That just communicates to me how ignorant he is about cultural differences. It’s very much like that pastor in Florida who was planning on burning a copy of Koran because he thinks Islam is evil. He probably thinks Muslims are a subspecies too. And, I assume you and Morrissey would sympathize with such feelings.

4. Purba Negoro says:

   September 19th, 2010 at 1:39 am

   Chinese culture is regressive, barbarous and inhumane.
   By labeling Morrissey a racist it detracts from the thrust of his argument being precisely being that
   This equally applies to their treatment of fellow humans (organs sold from death-penalty prisoners, open air autopsies) to their total refusal to finally renounce the barbarism of Traditional Chinese Medicine quackery with its obsession with ivory, shark fins, tiger parts and rhino parts which are the sole cause of said animal annihilation.
   Your Mongol binary thought processes simply cannot process one argument comprising multiple complex, simultaneous and discrete yet related topics without erroneous sophistic oversimplification- Chinaman’s reductio ad absurdem.

   All humans are equal, but culture as construct of man are not.
   Chinese culture is simply inferior in many regards to others. Chinese just hate being criticized by their white idols (forgotten the Chinese idiom: “one white cover one thousand blemish?”) or being reminded themselves of their own deeply entrenched culture of white supremacism and a Sinocentric (China is the centre of the world) worldview, where brown Asians of South East Asia are considered hura-ren- barbarians and all white technologist was already invented in China and stolen by the West.

   Having been to Guangzhou and Fujian- and seeing the zoos that pass as restaurants- and the depraved animal acts that pass as entertainment or even conservation- Chinese culture is repulsive.
   Chinese table manners are beyond foul- and this is why they are always seated away from whites and natives in hotel dining areas in Asia.
   If Chinese want respect- earn it. Disown and denounce the quackery of its stupid medicine which has marginal scientific empirical proof of its efficacy.
   Learn to eat with a knife and fork, instead of shoveling food into maws with sticks.
   Don’t defecate, urinate, vomit and spit in public streets.
   Don’t eat “everything which turns its back to the sun” or “has legs but not a table, that which flies but is not a kite, that which swims but is not a boat”

   Stop killing tigers, rhinos and sharks for your mindlessly regressive quackery that Chinese attempt to veneer with respectability by labeling it “culture” or “medicine”.

   Stop being cowardly economic criminals, who run when justice is finally served and who mock their beggar brethren in the streets instead of giving them 1 RMB.

   That being said, I do not apologize. I hate Chinese for what they did and have done and continue to do to my nation. I hate their pretensions to culture, their delusions of being nearly Caucasian, of being cowardly ass-lickers.
   It was Karmic come comeuppance for being Colonial collaborators, economic opportunistic exploiters and oppressors of the Austronesian majority.

   I am very proud to be the son of a Revolutionary who killed many of them and having sumptuous gifts heaped upon me as they licked my ass clean when I was in the ABRI.
   I love seeing the fear in Chinese eyes when I am in uniform and their envy when they see a dark brown skinned Austronesian with more wealth and a better grasp of English than them.
   Austronesians hate Chinese and they deserve every ounce of it.
   We always have and always will since we sent that puffed up Kublai Khan’s heroic soldiers running all the way back to their Yellow anus of a nation.

5. Angantyr says:

   September 21st, 2010 at 9:03 am

   I disagree with your statement that we are ”all racist”. It is nonsense. My partner is of a different ”skull type” (which is a tiny bit nonsense in its self) but I know that we are the same race as eachother. I know that all humans are.

6. Angantyr says:

   September 21st, 2010 at 9:08 am

   Prejudice and racism are not the same thing. I am against Christians, Avatar fans, Nazis and rapists, but I do not think they are different races. ”We are all racist” is oft repeated nonsense with no real valid argument behind it. How are we ”all” racist?

7. sandy says:

   September 21st, 2010 at 11:30 am

   the only racist in the world are the ones who dont think, eat, talk, smile, sleep, sit, etc…as our own selves do. face it. thats the whole truth. people dont like others if they arent the same as themselves. its what it all boils down to.. and Im really sorry but dear Purba must be a black person and needs a really good ole fashion attitude ajustment…..

8. Kenn says:

   September 26th, 2010 at 2:31 pm

   Caucasian Here : I think its racist to denigrate any peoples. I happen to like asians although I havent grown up among them. I was in asia during my navy years and found they can be quite warm welcoming people once they know you, just as do people the world over. yes Morrissey would talking out of his ass

9. KCS says:

   October 6th, 2010 at 2:42 am

   Purba Negoro – It’s pathetic that you have live a life filled with such hatred towards Chinese. You seem to blame it all on every single person with Chinese blood. You’re Indonesian (pribumi), am I right? Is there not a single pribumi criminal? Can I start saying all Indon pribumi are criminal? Your dad killed Chinese, can I start saying you’re a killer as well? Sadly, that is how you see things. Just FYI,

   >spit in public streets. – I’ve seen Indon does that
   >Learn to eat with a knife and fork, instead of shoveling food into maws with sticks. – Some Indon eat with bear hands, am I right? That’s your culture
   >all white technologist was already invented in China and stolen by the West. – apparently it’s the westerners who did the research and track is back to acient Chinese history. I think you simply couldn’t stand the Chinese were & still are smarter than of your own race.
   >It was Karmic come comeuppance for being Colonial collaborators, economic opportunistic exploiters – Indon Chinese are minority and yet the majority of Indonesia’s wealthiest are Chinese. Blame it on your own people who expect to be spoon fed and not work hard enough.

   It’s like you’re blaming a rape victim for being a female rather than the rapist itself. Remember May1998.

10. Neuropath says:

    October 14th, 2010 at 6:51 am

    The term subspecies implies no hierarchy or superiority what so ever, it simply delineates slight differences within the species classification. For one to say the Chinese people are a subspecies, means that ones own (race, group, collective) is also a subspecies. The presence of the ‘sub’ prefix in this case is fairly misleading, but subspecies itself doesn’t imply hierarchy among members of a species. A biological element was used to justify the actions of western Europeans and Americans toward disparate cultures historically, however if the term subspecies was used, it was A. Used entirely incorrectly or B. In no way logically aided the cause of indoctrinated oppression. Simply saying that differences between our cultures have made him feel like we are biologically distinct shouldn’t be interpreted as racism by anyone. Though clearly, it is an incredibly ignorant, and potentially offensive thing to say, especially considering the scientific taxonomy for our species is clearly documented and freely available all over the world.

    However it does not in any way imply he believes race is a determinate factor in superiority or successfulness, nor can it really be contrived as discrimination in this case, because he speaking based on observation of a behavior, rather than a race, and not basing decisive action on it ( in so far as the information provides )

    It seems to my mind, he’s just bafflingly ignorant, particularly when dealing with words and subjects that have potential to be so subjectively offensive. It does imply a great deal of prejudice being that all Chinese people aren’t treating their animals in a singular organized fashion all at once. However based on the provided statements I don’t think you could make any deeper observation than that. To suggest this stems from some latent racial animosity or fear seems premature and while not nearly as ignorant as old Morrisseys comment, still I feel, somewhat misguided.

    He should definitely be hounded by the media for being a moron, eventually realize such, and apologize. However I’m not prepared to label him as a genuine racist just yet. Lets save that particular word for people who pose an active and dangerous threat to relationships between world cultures, and stick to just calling Morrissey an asshole.

    Addendum:
    Your rebuttal pertaining to definitions being a(n) ( at least partially ) subjective matter in this case has clear merit. A hurt perceived only by the subject is still a hurt, regardless of intent. However I think the real point of any argument I have provided is that you are inferring too much information from a very brief statement and also potentially ( though you are obviously a competent linguist ) reading a connotation from ‘subspecies’ which is not actually within any of its definitions.

    Cheers this was a good read. Stumbled here looking for a way to illustrate to my girlfriend the differences between an empirical test and the evening news when trying to judge country of origin. Perhaps not the intended purpose, but your exams certainly did the job.

11. Dyske says:

    October 14th, 2010 at 7:05 am

    Hi Neuropath,

    Actually whether the word “subspecies” has a hierarchy built into the very definition of the word is irrelevant here. The point is that Morrissey observed a behavior that he deemed as inferior to the species that HE belongs to. He could have easily said the Chinese are a DIFFERENT species and still be racist because he is attributing a people’s behavior as based on biology when in fact there is no basis for that argument whatsoever.

    And you say you want to save the term “racist” to a more “dangerous” situations but THAT way of using the word “racist” is in fact disregarding its literal definition. My dictionary says: “the belief that all members of each race possess characteristics or abilities specific to that race, esp. so as to distinguish it as inferior or superior to another race or races.” Any determination of inferiority or superiority based on race (biological factor) is by definition racism.

12. Neuropath says:

    October 18th, 2010 at 1:37 am

    Hello again Dyske,

    I would have said the connotations of the word ‘subspecies’ are of particular importance, simply because of the ease of misunderstanding them. Which to your credit does not seem the case. I merely provide it as a method by which to element misunderstanding the nature of the actual argument. Its a flaw in my process really, since it apparently opens me up to being made a fool of in your opening statement lol.

    I don’t think its fair of you to say my reservation of the term racist for people who pose an “active and dangerous threat to world relations” is fair. You seem to have only quoted me as saying ‘dangerous’ when, in context, the meaning is much more particular. For instance, something thats dangerous to world relations ( indoctrinated racism, preventing mutual understanding and argument from equal ground ) , is not of the same nature as something thats dangerous to an individual ( falling rocks ). To clarify my intent was not that we use racism as a catch all for circumstances which are bad for world relations, but that we reserve it for those subject to the indoctrinated belief that race is the primary determinate of human traits and capabilities ( Which is racism that IS dangerous to world relations). The basis behind the apartheid, as opposed to the uneducated musings of a half-wit pseudo-pop star.

    Now the basis of your argument seems to be that Morrissey’s disgust in the treatment of animals by the ‘Chinese people’ implies he believes it is morally inferior behavior and that by use of the term subspecies, that he has suggested this is an inherent biological difference between the two peoples. ( I’ve quoted Chinese people because obviously its a severe generalization, whether of racist nature or not, he should simply, be more specific so as not to offend. ) All of this I am willing to accept, although my interpretation of his meaning is different, all of those are valid points which form the basis for your argument.

    However there are 2 things I would point out. First, that Morrissey has left all judgments of superiority up to the reader or listener. He has stated clearly they were disturbing to him, I believe he used the word horrid. Things that cause disgust to me, for arguments sake the consumption of ginger, I do no necessarily view as inferior or superior in any way. Who would? Likely only somebody already harboring feelings of inferiority or superiority and looking for circumstances in which to claim they are manifest. Things that disgust or abhor me, I do not necessarily regard as inferior behaviors. Birds eat worms.. its gross to me. That does not imply I feel I’m superior to birds, only different from them. My point being, that if your interpretation of subspecies is done without hierarchical connotation, then I see no where superiority or inferiority is implicit in his statement. There is no use of words like, right, wrong, good or bad. He seems to have left morality out entirely, and commented only on the basis of his feelings. If I find even minimal violence or neglect toward animals, frightening, shocking or abhorrent, and you find even strong violence toward animals to be completely commonplace. To make the observation that we may be more different than just cultural differences would suggest, does not imply a superiority based on those differences. Only in the case the reader brings his own moral beliefs into the argument does it come near the issues of racism. Based on Morrissey’s statement alone, I think it is inferring to much, to assume he’s suggesting a moral superiority based on biology. I feel he is simply registering his disgust over a behavior that is different, and suggesting that difference might be greater than he originally recognized. Which is a much, lighter interpretation than yours I admit. That is just, at my first glance, how I read the statement. I in know way assumed he genuinely the felt the Chinese people were of an inferior inherent quality or that they were actually biologically different than us. Just that he got carried away attempting to be linguistically vibrant.

    Second, I’ll go back to something else you said. “We are all racist”. I think this might be one of the primary differences in how we are approaching this argument. I agree completely that everyone harbors some prejudices. It is just inherent in the way we work as a thinking machine. We are built to make snap judgments, and while its primarily useful to us It also definitely causes many of us, to adhere to these judgments rather than continue to process reality. I wouldn’t call that racism. For instance, I might say that Japanese people are a little kinky, or ‘pervy’ excluding of course at least some connotations of that word. This of course, simply isn’t true. Its not reality, its just a reflection on some aspects of some Japanese culture I’ve been exposed to. This may be interpreted as a racist remark in some contexts, that is true. However it in no way implies a I feel my behavior is superior or inferior to it in any way. It also, definitely doesn’t signify this is a fundamental pillar of my belief system, or that I even have a belief system. Which to me is a fundamental aspect for use of the term racism. I feel this prejudices are simply benign mistakes in our behavior and that far from being harmful to us, we should simply laugh them off for the silliness they actually are. Like a grown person recalling their childhood mispronunciation of hamburger ( han-guh-ber ). In no way an actual reflection on the fortitude of a persons spirit or their underlying character. In my opinion, based on my interpretations of the various definitions of racism. Racism, to me, would require a belief, a fundamental basis of thought, that our races are the determinate factor in our traits, abilities and successfulness. Therefore, a person might make a remark that is interpreted as racism, perhaps might even be racism by definition, and never have that fundamental belief that would label them in my mind, a racist. We should shun these mistakes, and educate and enlighten to eliminate their cause, but softening the power of the label ‘racist’ on these acts out of simple ignorance, or mistakes of language seems to be a great injustice to those who suffer long term, indoctrinated discrimination, limits to their freedoms, or even violence based on racist belief systems.

    ” a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race ”

    This is the definition of racism I traditionally operate under, although yours is just as good perhaps better in some ways. Yes either might apply to the errors in judgment or misuse of language I mentioned, but I think having looked at many definitions over the last 50 billion words I typed at you, that I have made a decent case for the proper interpretation.

    I don’t want you to feel I’m out to demoralize, troll or flame you. Your arguments simply pose at least ‘pseudo’ intellectual questions and problems that I am enthused to address. ( I say pseudo-intellectual not to insult, simply to highlight that I’m nowhere near well informed enough to consider myself an intellectual expert on these subjects. )

    Best regards,
    Neuro

13. wth says:

    October 26th, 2010 at 11:54 am

    There is nothing wrong? Who are u to say there is nothing wrong? My teacher?

14. Anon says:

    October 27th, 2010 at 8:07 pm

    This has nothing to do w/the topic above but using the English as an example for animal abuse is way off the mark. They’re crazy about animals and very civilized and advanced in many ways. Use a different argument.

15. Subspecies says:

    October 29th, 2010 at 2:46 am

    What makes another more cerebral, cultured and above all else by suggesting the Chinese would be a subspecies based on their attitudes towards animals? No one has the right to judge another race unless they themselves have lived in the others’ shoes and fully comprehend behaviors brought about by centuries of tradition and oppression (think opium war & Boxer Rebellion, dynastic discriminations and Maoist rule). No one can really know what it means to be nurtured into a survival mindset unless one’s been born into it. I don’t condone the Chinese attitudes nor do I condemn it. I just try to understand it.
    Case in point:
    Should the Indians or Hindus condemn Morrissey for eating beef? What sort of inferior life form eats beef?Doesn’t he know that cows are sacred? Is morrissey a sub specie for his attitude towards the cow? He wouldn’t be considered very cultured in India, despite his colonial roots.

    No one has the right to judge. If all races were the same, there wouldn’t be such a thing as race. Just one bland shade of beige!

16. Avi Goldstein says:

    October 29th, 2010 at 3:20 pm

    @Purba Negoro:

    You are without a doubt the most pathetic loser to ever post on these forums. Your rant only demean yourself and your piece of shit culture and country, exposing to the world just how pathetic Bornean culture is, and why it remains one of the poorest nations in the world, ranking behind Swaziland and Congo(!). You yourself are such a fucking idiot, that in the same post as bragging about your command of English, you misspelled the Latin term that you no doubt have only heard others use without knowing what the fuck they even mean: it’s ABSURDUM with a U, you fucking spear chucking moron.

    The Chinese might eat animals that other cultures do not, but they at least stop at eating PEOPLE. Your piece of shit culture on the other hand has a long history of cannibalism that lasts TO THIS VERY DAY.. YOU want to talk about barbarism? You? The product of a piece of shit culture that DIGS UP DEAD PEOPLE TO EAT THEM? What fucking table manners do you use for that? If it weren’t for the civilizing influence of the Chinese and other cultures, this wouldn’t be that isolated incident and every fucking indon in your piece of shit country would still be hunting each other every day instead of buying meat at the market — “Honey, can you pick up somebody for dinner?”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if your dear old revolutionary dad has probably been dug up and eaten by one of your indon neighbors and literally become shit by now. That would only be fitting because it would make you even more deserving of the name “little shit.”

    And your uniform? Uniforms mean nothing in themselves but only represent the power of the institution that issued them. An organ grinder’s monkey wears a uniform. You wear a uniform. Neither signifies any real power or prestige, because yours has been a boot licking, back-stabbing piece of shit nation since even before its creation — in attempting to gain its independence, your beloved Sukarno had his head up so far every foreign power’s ass, they could smell his hair grease in the back of their noses — from his “Yes, Independent Indonesia can only be achieved with Dai Nippon” letter to the Japanese emperor to his enslavement of his own people in service of the Japanese empire, in the kerja paksa aka Romusha program, to his successor Suharto’s blaming the Chinese and Americans during the Asian financial crisis later, your culture and country has proven itself to be nothing more than a incompetent collection of thieves, whores, slavedrivers and cannibals who are completely incapable of managing their own affairs, forever begging the outside world to rescue it from its own shitty culture and government. Every time something goes wrong there, I am again shocked the whole country didn’t just revert right back to cutting up and roasting their neighbors for dinner, since some of you haven’t given up on it even in peace time.

    Speaking of the Asian Financial Crisis, as another example of the way Indonesia continually embarrasses itself as a nation, even after stealing the money and properties the ethnic Chinese Indonesians had accumulated, your entire piece of shit of a nation still had to purse its collective national lips and physically suck money out of the IMF’s ass to keep the nation from going bankrupt. China, Hong Kong, and Taiwan all made it through the 90’s without degrading themselves in this way because they knew how to work instead of blaming everyone else for their own shortcomings. Japan’s socialistic tendencies wouldn’t let them fire unnecessary workers and improve efficiency, but even they had limped their way through the crisis better than Borneo, because they were not hampered by a piece of shit Bornean culture of thieves, whores, and back stabbing cannibals.

    You’re not just nothing — you are less than nothing. Your cannibalistic straw hut village of a nation will be ruled by the Chinese, or Japanese, or Americans within twenty years, if it is not bombed out of existence for being a haven for muslim terrorists first.

    But I see on the news that it is being buried by its own volcanoes even as I write this. Since you mentioned “karmic comeuppance”, I say sit back and enjoy your “vast mineral riches” you stupid fucking prick. You and your culture are such an abomination, that nature itself is trying to wipe it off of the face of the earth. Cyclones. Earthquakes. Tsunamis. Volcanic activity. Yeah you are one to talk about karmic comeuppance.

    Get your spear-chucking, head shrinking Bornean cannibal ass the fuck out of here you pathetic little shit.

17. Havey says:

    October 30th, 2010 at 7:51 am

    I fully agree with Dyske in everything he’s been saying here. Morrissey, being absolutely sure of his biological superiority, is a blatant racist.

18. Liz says:

    November 16th, 2010 at 8:03 pm

    Purba-

    It amazes me how someone how has the potential to be racially denigrated like yourself because of your assumed cultural rites as well as your physicality, could be so incredibly insensitive and ignorant toward another race, in which you obviously know very little about.

    Avi-

    I definitely understand and identify with your frustration toward Purba’s attitude, but by belittling his country’s culture and traditions that you obviously know very little of as well, is essentially hypocritical and solves nothing. You too are exhibiting extreme cultural discrimination that could very well be harming others who uphold these deeply-rooted traditions (those in which white people have no place to scrutinize just because they lack the reasoning behind these practices) and are not in fact as ignorant and hateful as Purba.

19. cj says:

    December 6th, 2010 at 3:24 am

    no race in the world should be called subspecies. we are all humans and just because each race develps their own sets of rules or are affected by ethnic stereotypes and all doesnt means they are inferior to any other race. Set aside our differences and work together. racism is an ugly thing and can be stopped by not assuming, generalising/stereotyping. whether you are european or asian or african or any other race, you would not want your race, something you feel strongly for, be demoralised by others because your race is different to others.

20. Jean-François Lyotard says:

    December 8th, 2010 at 1:47 pm

    All this racism is killing me inside!

21. elbow says:

    December 16th, 2010 at 5:04 pm

    Neuropath, Morrisey is clearly misusing the word subspecies to mean sub-human. If he thought people might come away from that phrase thinking he was NOT passing a value judgement, he probably would have said something else.

22. Erika says:

    December 17th, 2010 at 4:01 pm

    *Insert angry rant about stereotypes and criticisms of Jewish culture in an attempt to piss off Avi*

    Now someone come up with some rambly nonsense about my culture (Japanese) and the circle jerk shall continue!

23. Chris says:

    December 18th, 2010 at 5:27 am

    Dyske, either you’re deliberately twisting Morrissey’s words so that you can kick up a fuss and write this horrendously written article, or you’re just a bit dim. I’ll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume it’s the latter. To quote the article: “In his view, if you treat an animal badly, you are less than human. I think that was his point.” His comment had nothing to do with the Chinese people, it was his view on their culture; their treatment of animals in particular. And as you say, “there is nothing wrong with criticizing a culture or a nation; it’s policies, customs, philosophies, etc…”

    As for “we are all racist. Denying it makes the problem worse because we stop questioning our own prejudice, and prejudice is something that creeps out when we least expect it.” What an utterly meaningless and incredibly pretentious thing to say.

    It’s funny, whenever I read an article written by a dense prick such as yourself, they almost always turn out to be a hypocrite. Nice try attempting to quote Einstein in such a poorly, thinly-veiled manner and then claim it as your own, by the way, I’m sure that’ll go right over the heads of the tools that read your “articles” regularly.

24. Dyske says:

    December 18th, 2010 at 8:34 am

    @Chris

    You can describe INDIVIDUALS as being less than human. There are indeed individual black people who are criminals, but to conclude that blacks in general are criminals is racism because you are attributing the cause of being criminals to the race, which has no basis whatsoever.

    You can criticize a CULTURE. But that’s not what Morrissey did. He described the Chinese as “subspecies”. That is, he attributed the cause of their behavior to biology. “species” is a term used to describe biological differences. He could have described the Chinese culture as “inhumane”. Although I would disagree with that characterization (I don’t think any particular culture is more humane or inhumane than any other culture), he is entitled to his opinions about any culture. But to say that their behavior has something to do with the Chinese as a species is an entirely different matter, and has no basis whatsoever.

    I didn’t know Einstein said similar things. I would be curious to know the exact quote if you have it. However, this isn’t something Einstein came up with either. This problem of prejudice is nothing new in philosophy. There is even a song called “Everyone is a little bit racist” in the musical “Avenue Q”. Perhaps it’s an uncommon idea in your mind, but it’s not. I don’t claim it as my own idea just as I wouldn’t assume that people think I invented Lasagna every time I cook it.

25. Frank Luo says:

    December 18th, 2010 at 1:59 pm

    Chris — you wrote “His comment had nothing to do with the Chinese people”

    …about Morrissey’s comments, from which I quote the sentence:

    “You can’t help but feel that the Chinese are a subspecies.”

    (http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2010/sep/03/morrissey-simon-armitage-interview)

    …which makes YOU an idiot. Or a liar. Most likely both.

    By his own QUOTES, from this interview as well as previous interviews, Morrissey has shown himself to be a racist self-righteous asshole who wishes to force the whole world to live the way he lives and believe what he believes, denigrating people as less than human when they do not. The truth is just as simple as that.

26. wtfiswrongwithurhead says:

    December 20th, 2010 at 9:12 pm

    Purba – seriously I hate to say this…but u r a live example of ‘subspecies’

    Avi – Bravo!!! I agree that some comments might have been too extreme…but they are the real deep roots of the problems in that shithole country….Indons have a fucking tradition of laziness and ignorance. They don’t earn, but they steal; they don’t work but expect to be spoon fed; they don’t try to find problems in themselves but always try to blame on other people. Seriously indons, go eat some humans cos that’s the only thing u r good at.

27. elbow says:

    January 11th, 2011 at 3:22 pm

    Purba, you say you like forcing people to lick your asshole clean. That is way more depraved and nauseating than anything you have accused the Chinese people/culture of.

28. BruceCarson2008 says:

    February 1st, 2011 at 5:05 am

    You’re getting very worked up over one word. On top of that, he was clearly focused on the nation of China, not Chinese people as an ethnicity. I highly doubt he believes that cruelty to animals is an innate Chinese genetic feature. If he did think that’s the case, then by all means he is a racist, but he’s said similar things about Canadians (for the seal hunt) and he obviously doesn’t think Canadians are a homogeneous race. To make it worse causing this sort of controversy is precisely his shtick and by blogging about it you let him win.

    Honestly, what is up with Chinese bloggers and the effort to construe criticisms of China or its government as anti-Chinese racism? Like during the melamine scare, where Chinese babies and western pets were being poisoned by poorly made Chinese products, a lot of Chinese nationalists played it up as some example of western anti-Chinese racism or “yellow peril.” You’d think they’d be more concerned about the Chinese babies being poisoned by Melamine.

    Actually, the only clearly racist view I’ve consistently come across reading Pro-China blogs is the belief amongst Chinese people that “imperialism” or “racism” is something inherent to white people and not something that Asians are capable of. That white people are naturally by birth “expansionist.”

    To be clear, there are some anti-Chinese racist incidents, especially in south Asian countries like Indonesia. But I see very little focus on that, the over-riding concern of Pro-China bloggers is their view of a competition between the US and China, where they cast anyone with any suspicion of China as a racist. TO BE CLEAR, I don’t think you’re doing this, you seem to be just a bit overly defensive. 🙂

29. BruceCarson2008 says:

    February 1st, 2011 at 5:07 am

    By belief amongst Chinese people I didn’t mean all Chinese people believe this or that, just that I’ve come across the belief that imperialism is a white genetic trait from a number of Pro-China bloggers. Got to be careful here otherwise you’ll dismiss me as a racist. 😉

30. friendlymunki says:

    February 3rd, 2011 at 12:56 am

    @ Purba Negoro

    hey man, chopsticks are MUCH harder and require MUCH more skill to use than a knife and fork… chill out man, why don’t you go climb a tree and grab me a coconut or something lol. i’ll pay you 1 RMB for your labour, good deal?

31. AnimalsAreUs says:

    February 6th, 2011 at 10:11 am

    Totally agree with the subspecies analogy; China – the land of savage thugs and sadistic tormentors. After seeing the video, which I forced myself to watch, of dogs being skinned alive so that some dopey tart can adorn herself with clothes such as her distant ancestors wore, my very soul felt wounded and soiled. Soiled by the fact that the race to which I belong, albeit one which has evolved and has learned compassion, can belittle itself to behaving like something that has only just emerged into the world – undeveloped, raw and unintelligent. Without knowing the difference between right and wrong every creature in the world is in danger from this barbaric sub-culture; it won’t stop to consider the long term effects because that requires a more sophisticated brain. The world will come to an end at the hands of savages, for it is they who were here at the beginning – the circle completes itself.

32. Frank Luo says:

    February 12th, 2011 at 11:53 am

    Mmm… Steak. Too bad I can’t get whale in America. I’ll have to remember to look for it if I’m ever in Canada, where they sell whale meat in supermarkets. Yum!

33. nevart says:

    February 16th, 2011 at 2:16 pm

    Racism is a very bad thing. But what “AnimalsAreUs” said about animal abuse where animals are skinned alive, there is no other explanation than that the people who would do such a thing, including tolerate such a thing, are very bad people. Without actual evidence that such a video exists there is no way to verify the claims made, nor is it necessarily the case that it can be proved that the people in the video are Chinese unless there is some recognizable landmark in the background and even then (if we accept it is true that “all look same”) it is possible that they are non-Chinese people in China.

    But it is true that if you do something like this – to prolong the suffering of an animal for no reason, or purely for “tradition” – then you are not fit to wear the title of human. To be worthy of this title you must be humane, and obviously to torture animals by skinning them alive is not humane, and therefore anyone who does that is not fit to be called human.

    In this case though, we are talking about individuals. Not every Chinese person in the world is going to be the sort who is willing to kill or harm an animal. Some might be able to kill an animal but would not want it to suffer unnecessarily. And then there are others that would not take much pleasure from it. But then there are probably people of all races that fit all of these categories.

    What should be of more concern is the tolerance factor, and that probably is true that in China things are tolerated which might not be tolerated in other nations. This means that people see something that is intolerable and instead of speaking out against it, they turn a blind eye to it and ignore it. I am not saying it only happens in China, but it certainly does happen in China.

    The reasons for “tolerance of the intolerable” could be cultural or political. Are people tolerating things because they are afraid of the consequences of speaking out against them?

    Whale meat is only sold in Canada in traditional Inuit communities where it is traditionally part of the diet. It is wrong, but that is the problem with political correctness and the fears of being labeled as racist, it encourages tolerance of the intolerable, and under the present circumstances with whale populations very endangered, it is intolerable to harvest whale meat no matter how traditional it is. Just eat some other critter for a while, give the whales a chance to repopulate so your children can eat the grandchildren of those whales.

    Same goes for all fishing though. There are too many fish being caught. We should impose a ban on fishing any creature except squid (of which there are far too many) until the populations can recover.

    And why aren’t whales being farmed? You could do AI and farm them instead of catching wild whales.

34. Junko says:

    January 30th, 2012 at 6:55 pm

    Why the heck are many of you people applying the thing done by one person or a few number of people to a whole race of 13 million people?
    @AnimalsAreUs Dog eating do happen in China, in some rural areas, but I can assure you, most Chinese people do not kill dogs or EAT dogs. it’s an over statement and really unfair to the Chinese to call them all barbarous or inhumane, OR a subspecies just cuz a minorities of people there abuse animals. As far as I know, some Europeans eat monkeys! and monkeys, as I’m sure everyone knows, are human’s closely related relatives. if killing dogs is barbarous and inhumane and a subspecies of human, what makes the Europeans?
    Animal hunting, eating, killing do not only happen to the Chinese. Canada has seal and whale killing, Japan has whale killing, Europe has monkey killing, Inca Natives has guinea pig killing and Ancient Romans kills people for fun etc. If your comment holds up, then ALL human race are a piece of shit and don’t deserve to live on Earth!

35. Junko says:

    January 30th, 2012 at 6:57 pm

    @Purba Negoro , you are just pathetic.

36. Junko says:

    January 30th, 2012 at 9:59 pm

    @Frank Luo
    I have lived here in Canada most of my life and have never seen whale meat in supermarket. Where did you get your informations?

37. cj says:

    January 31st, 2012 at 3:39 pm

    Chinese (and particularly Asians) are really cruel to the animals. In China it is caused by a lost of culture, and high poverty levels, so many people are not on the level to understand it is wrong. It has nothing to do with race, rather than cultural maturity of a nation.

38. yourted says:

    February 2nd, 2012 at 8:56 am

    Hi,guys:
    Facing the topic the people who love China will disagree and the others will agree.Its make no-sense. Anyway,i respect all the people how they lives and their culture. The culture and tradition of food can not define what people are. In india cow is holy animal but in many countries beef is people’s favorite food.
    Please forgive my english and have a nice day!

39. Andy says:

    February 24th, 2012 at 12:18 am

    Look any of these SO CALLED cultures that tortures any living creature just to tenderise the flavour of the meat…is sick and in humane…I dont care where they come from…American…black or white..chinese..the list goes on and on..If your going to kill something to eat it..then kill it…dont torture it for Gods sake…I DONT RESPECT ANY CULTURE THAT DOES THAT AND ANYONE WHO DOES IS AN IDIOT…I saw a video on youtube about mares that are used only for their milk for stupid fucking soldiers…the poor baby foals are tossed away to die…is that cultural…I think people deserve whatever torture and pain that is inflicted on them…Im embaressed to be part of the human race…I think humans are cruel..and whatever torture or pain they inflict on another living creature..human or animal deserve it back TWICE AS BAD…FUCK THE HUMAN RACE..WHO ARE WE TO CALL OURSLEVES HUMAN ANYWAY…WERE ANIMALS…NOT HUMANS.

40. golf says:

    March 12th, 2012 at 4:38 am

    LMFAO! Good God that must have been mortifying…for him.Report this comment as spam or abuse

41. Frank Luo says:

    March 14th, 2012 at 12:02 am

    @Junko:

    This is not where I read about it, but it confirms it:

    http://www.highnorth.no/Library/Publications/M-hunter/ma-hu-in.htm

    “In the Canadian Arctic, meanwhile, whale products are mainly distributed through extended family networks. In some localities retail stores stock mattak, and efforts to encourage inter-settlement trade in all products derived from hunts are encouraged by the government, which also closely monitors limited domestic exports from the Arctic.”

    I remember reading about whale being sold in stores. Couldn’t google up the reference just now.

42. Manpal says:

    November 11th, 2015 at 7:08 pm

    that when a law is made in China, it seemed to him that eornyvee thought about how they could obey the law. When a law is made in the US , my nephew said, eornyvee thinks about how to avoid obeying it. And, finally, my own observation of cultural differences involves competition. I am quite competitive , and at the time I visited Changchun as a team leader, I was eager to bring along a Scrabble board to help my students improve their English. Of course, I also wanted to teach them to keep score. After all , I thought, what’s the point of playing a game if you don’t know how to keep score. In the first game, we teamed up: I had one student on my side (Team 1)and there were two students teamed together as our opponents (Team 2).As we played I showed the students the rudiments of the scoring system and how to look for the hot spots to double or even triple their score. To my great surprise, when a member of Team 2 caught on, she was very excited to share this information with my partner. She would say to us on Team 1, Oh, look, you can get a good score here. I was my observation that while I thought of competing against Team 2, the Chinese students thought of competing against the board. How can we get a good score using the board , not How can we get a better score than our opponents. It was a lesson for me. In my way, there were losers. In their way, we all were winners.