The Cove Should Not Be Banned in Japan
By Dyske June 11th, 2010
The Cove shown in Japan
Many nationalists in Japan are calling for the ban on the controversial documentary, “The Cove”. This is unfortunate. The ban would only legitimize and vindicate the filmmakers’ positions, and would probably sway more people to the side of the filmmakers.
My sense is that if everyone in Japan were to watch the film, the filmmakers would be proven wrong. They have repeatedly claimed that the Japanese media and government are deliberately covering up what is going on in Taiji, and that once they learn of the fact, everyone in Japan would be outraged. I would say they are wrong. In fact, they have already been proven wrong partially. Even though many people have not seen the film yet, now they are at least aware of the fact that dolphin hunting goes on in Taiji, but the reaction of the Japanese people have so far been largely against the film. There is no national outcry to stop the dolphin hunt, which is what the filmmakers were expecting.
DownWithNewAge says:
June 11th, 2010 at 1:41 pmAlthough I am a native speaker of Japanese and not fluent in English, I write this comment in English so that not only the Webmaster but visitors of this site can read this.
Personally I do not want to watch the movie and I will not. As one of the Japanese people, who are insulted as Nazis by L. Psihoyos, the director of “The Cove” (see the link below), I will never pay them a yen. If I would, they would continue to bully the innocent villagers of Taiji with my money.
An interview of Psihoyos with Cyzo, a Japanese magazine (in Japanese)
http://www.cyzo.com/2010/03/post_4071.html
In Thailand, the movie “The King and I” is banned because it is supposedly insulting the Thai people by stereotypically depicting them. I see any problem in it, and I suppose that “The Cove” for the Japanese is on the same line with “The King and I” for the Thai. I seriously wonder why many people, inside and outside Japan, consider it problematic that “The Cove” is not put on the screen, despite the outrage of the Japanese people.
Dyske says:
June 11th, 2010 at 2:10 pm@DownWithNewAge
I think you have a valid point about not supporting the filmmakers and the production company financially, but you personally choosing not to see it, is different from banning the film. Banning the film would prevent others from making their own choices, so whatever opinions that come to dominate the Japanese society would be skewed and biased, and would never be trusted as objective and fair. The filmmakers could always claim that the Japanese people are wrong about their judgment of the film because they never actually saw it.
It would be far more powerful, if they all saw it, and still remained against the film. If that happens, the filmmakers have no excuse.
By the way, you could watch the film online for free. There is no point in seeing The Cove in a theater.
Sumomopete says:
June 11th, 2010 at 5:33 pmhmmm. I am not a native Japanese speaker, though I have lived in Japan for 11 years. DownWith makes some good points. However, I think the issue is that the ultra nationalists are causing a ruckus on the pretense that the film is degrading Japan, and its people, and there for has no valid point to make of its own. True I come from a culture that is all about free speech, and I am sure the producers of the film will espouse that as well. However, and I have seen the film, though it could be done in a more subtle way, I don’t believe the producers are saying ” THE JAPANESE” but rather those who allow this to happen or participate in it, without acknowledging it in the open, are the “bad guys”.
If you were to watch it, you could then make up your mind, and see the context that the comments were made and how the film is depicted. I am not saying he did not make that derogatory statement, just that there is a lack of context in the article. I certainly would not call “the Japanese” Nazi’s, but there are some out there that have some pretty big boots. And the fishermen in Taiji behave, on film (also contextual), in a manner that brings the above imagery to mind. And might I say, the interviewer, for that article is playing word games, and asking silly leading questions.. okashikunai?
I don’t think you can argue that it’s is not happening. It’s not CG, and the people participating in the culling are going out of their way to do it in a place that is hard to access and or one might say hidden. They, the producers, make many other points about health risks, and lack of transparency concerning what happens after the culling, but that is not the main point. The main point is they are killing dolphins and porpoises, they are doing it out of sight of any normal passerby or citizen of Taiji, much less someone who wants to see what they are doing, and they are doing it in a way that implies they know it to be wrong, or rather that others would see it as wrong.
If it’s not wrong, then why not do it in the open? And if it’s not wrong, why do the fishermen, the local government, and the right wingers care what some person in Tokyo or London, or LA thinks? I think you can argue, because it is exactly the point that it “may” be condemned by people in Tokyo, or Osaka, LA, Madison, Tikkrit, or St. Petersburg, much less Tanohata, or Otaru, or some other small out of the way town….it just looks bad. Cause it is.
If you really feel strongly against the creators of this film, then you should go see it, or watch a version you don’t have to pay for, and then continue to go about your life without doing anything about it. Saying they have insulted “The Japanese” is a poor reason to ignore the storm that is rising around you, or not try to fix how its portrayed to the masses. I personally am glad they made the film, I knew about this years ago, but I also understand that it’s my opinion, and no one has a right (yes very American) to keep me from accessing that information…do they. The fact that fishermen in Taiji kill dolphins does not make me hate Japan, or the people of Japan, just the people who say its not happening, and then offer me dolphin meat on a skewer.
DownWithNewAge says:
June 12th, 2010 at 12:51 pm@Dyske
Well, I think that it should be noted that no one in Japan has banned the movie nor has the right to do it yet. But anyway, anyone, even the stupidest right wingers (I do believe the right wingers are the worst ones after the WWII), have the right to make objections to put “The Cove” on the screen, as long as it is suspected as a hate-speech. And if some theaters abandoned their ideas to put them on their screen, it’s merely their choices, not the power of the Government.
When the infamous cartoon book named “嫌韓流” (“Anti-Koreanism”) was published in Japan, all the major newspapers rejected its advertisement because they thought it was hate-speech. I belive they were right, and at the same time I think the movie theaters who abandoned to put “The Cove” on their screens had the right to do it.
It’s good that we can watch “The Cove” for free online. If they didn’t so, I would be completely despising them because I would be sure that they had made the movie only for money.
@Sumomopete
Well, I have nothing to oppose the idea of “the freedom of speech”, but I think it should be noted that the idea “no freedom for the enemy of enemies of freedom” came from the post-war Germany, not from Japan. I think the idea “Militant Democracy”, which forbids hate-speech, should be introduced also in Japan, and therefore I think “The Cove” could be banned.
I have began to be interested in this issue not for “The Cove”, but because of the fact that dog meat restraunts was closed in South Korea in 2002, when the football (soccer) World Cup was held there. I believed (and do belive) there were NO reasons that it should be banned, and I got very angry at it. Unfortunately, this stupidity was repeated in 2008, when China had their first Olympic Games in Beijing. I really, really, really, really, really wonder why such apparent RACISM is tolerated in the world, in this 21th century. I would say this kinds of FASCISM, along with banning scarfs of Muslims in Europe, is the WORST aspect of the Western culture. It’s very shameful that European and American “liberals” are in fact very intolerant with other cultures. And it is no doubt that “The Cove” is on the same line with them.
It is not problematic at all that many Japanese do not know that some Japanese catch dolphins to eat it. Some Americans (i.e. Inuits) catch whales to eat them, some Canadians baby seals, etc. Apparently neither of them are problematic, disregarding whether most Americans or Canadians know them or not. Similarly, no dolphin hunting in the world should be oppressed only because the someone is not familiar with it.
To be in majority never means that you are right. No local cultures should be suppressed because it is not so common outside.
Sumomopete says:
June 17th, 2010 at 12:26 pm@Downwith – You make some excellent points. I guess my issue with this whole issue is more about being up front. While writing the above, I consistently thought about the same example you mention about the Inuit, and as well, who am I to condemn anyone. I love meat. I do not kill the animals myself, but I am happy to sit down to a steak. There are all kinds of reasons why the dolphin killing and the killing of cows do not correlate, and where they do cross.
The point is, do I really have the right to say “stop”? I think the biggest distinction, between what is happening in Japan, Denmark, and Finland, and what the native peoples of the north do is how and why. The Inuit do not (as far as I have been able to find) use practices that take more than they (the community) can use. They do not profit from the sale of excess meat or resources. They do not use fast chase craft to get their whales or harpoon guns to dispatch their prey. They certainly do not hold a beachside auction, where they directly profit monetarily.
I think that’s a big distinction to make, and possibly why so many “liberals” are up in arms. It’s all about PR. If it really was a cultural issue, people might calm down, but it’s about a perception issue, and people latch on to the “sale” of resources. I have eaten whale meat. It was “good”. I did not “enjoy” it. I did it because I didn’t think it was right to speak out against something I never considered, or comprehend from the other side, something I just feel in my gut, a knee jerk reaction. I feel regret that I went that far, and I know my eating it helped perpetuate the killing, in a small way; we live with what we do.
I oppose whaling (I throw killing lower whales like dolphins and porpoises) on moral levels. I think whales are smarter than cows and chickens. I think primates are smarter than cows and chickens; I do not eat them either though. Am I wrong? Possibly! Is there a real distinction between a whale and a pig? I believe there is, there must be! If there isn’t, then everything and everyone is fair game (very simplistic view I know) Once you’re dead, you’re dead. Yes pigs have a right to a happy life, so do fishermen, and whales. There is no one good answer. The fact that it’s causing “hate speech” is deplorable, and debatable. And unfortunately tolerance is out the window on this one, on both sides.
Someone somewhere (usually westerners) will always find a reason to point out the differences, often based on race or culture, will single out Japan, Korea and China as the “Other”. Sad but true. One other sad but true thing is, if it’s happening, maybe this is a time to reflect and change perceptions? I agree it’s completely stupid that Korean and Chinese “had” to limit exposure to ethnic and cultural aspects of their lives because people( westerners) would be upset to see wan-chan on the menu. It WAS prudent though! That does not make it right however.
I bet that if you asked 100 Americans who have been out of the country and 100 Americans who have not, what they thought about this whole issue, you would be surprised at who is more tolerant. We (Americans) are sadly enough, pretty ignorant about the world, and childishly petulant when we are called to task. Before you flame, think about that last statement. And Yes I am an American who lived in Japan for many years.
Christopher Carr says:
June 21st, 2010 at 10:40 amThe latest reports I read say that something like 86% who’ve seen the movie still support Taiji’s rights to hunt dolphins.
Chisa Hidaka says:
July 3rd, 2010 at 12:28 pmIf the movie does not have an impact, it will be because the film makers did not appeal to Japanese sensibilities.
The movie focuses on the cruelty of killing intelligent animals as the rationale for stopping the killings. Japanese people argue, ‘Why is it worse to kill an intelligent animal like a dolphin than an innocent one like a cow? The important thing is to appreciate the giving of life that sustains us (food).’ It isn’t a question of whose rationale is ‘right’. It’s a question of framing the message in a way that resonates with the local culture.
The mercury angle could work if it’s framed in the right way.
Japanese people think wasting lives is morally reprehensible (again, the intelligence of the creature is not so important). This is the concept of ‘mottainai’. I think the idea that dolphins are being killed even though they are inedible would be seen as terribly wrong by Japanese people – and it would be stopped.
In fact, when dolphin killings were exposed by Hardy Jones and others in the 1980s and 1990s in other villages (Futo and Iki) Japanese journalists wrote about how the fishermen were killing dolphins in much greater numbers than the government-set quota. This excessive killing – beyond food necessity – successfully gained Japanese support to shut down the hunts in these villages.
Instead, the film makers frame the mercury issue as a criminal cover up – about dolphin meat being sold and snuck into school lunches despite toxic levels of mercury. Japanese people are not likely to be enthusiastic about joining a ‘foreign’ bandwagon that points to Japanese ‘criminals’.
To influence Japanese people, understanding Japanese culture is important.
That said…who knows? Maybe Japanese people will rise to the occasion and stop the killings DESPITE the cultural insensitivity of the movie. One can only hope!
seethereality says:
July 5th, 2010 at 3:40 amIt is amazing to see how people react to this movie emotionally. I am sure those people would react in same manner when they see the culture that people eats dogs or horses or any animals they assume pets. They should make a movie called ‘cows’ with hidden camera in slaughter house, finishing the movie with the scene that the blood goes into the the drainage. My biggest concern is, the film maker found another gold mine.
Steve says:
July 7th, 2010 at 12:53 amI think that a lot of people who oppose Japans hunting of Whales, dolphins and alike are more opposed to the fact that Japanese are not willing to come forward and admit that they do not care about the welfare or health of marine life. They prefer to hide behind excuses such as “research” despite the whole world knowing this is not true. It’s pure cowardice in my opinion and documentaries like this seek to show how cowardly the Japanese are as much as they seek to highlight how unnecessary and barbaric it is too. I support Greenpeace and the Sea Shepherd partly because, after living in Japan for 5 years, I could not believe how scared the Japanese were to show their true colors. They hide behind courtesy and pretend to be ignorant so that they do not have to come out and say “Yeah we kill Whales and Dolphins and don’t give a sh*t what the rest of you think”. This is their worst nightmare, having to admit they have a dark side. The world is starting to realize the Japanese are not the little angels of Asia they would like to be seen as but are much like the Chinese and Koreans – developed nations with practices seen as inhumane by the west. If you want to do it, fine, fight openly for your right to, but do not pretend you are any more ethically or socially developed or better than your neighbors China or Korea. You have practices the rest of the world deem inappropriate so just own up to them and stop being cowards.
DownWithNewAge says:
July 7th, 2010 at 11:47 amA documentary which counterattacks “The Cove” has been produced and published by some non-Japanese people.
http://www.imdb.com/video/wab/vi2186805785/
@Sumomopete
“I think the biggest distinction, between what is happening in Japan, Denmark, and Finland, and what the native peoples of the north do is how and why.”
“They do not profit from the sale of excess meat or resources.”
Honestly, I don’t understand this argument despite the fact this point is frequently posed by those whom do not support whaling. While many farmers and fishers live on “profit from the sale of excess meat or resources” and it is permitted as long as they do not seriously damage the eco-system, why some Japanese, Norwegians and Icelanders should be singled out?
“Is there a real distinction between a whale and a pig? I believe there is, there must be! If there isn’t, then everything and everyone is fair game (very simplistic view I know)”
Yes, you have the right to “believe” that you are right, as Hindus have the right to “believe” that killing and eating cows is evil. But I think both of you don’t have the right to “impose” your belief to others.
One more thing: cows and pigs are supposedly much smarter than many other mammals like cats, mice and rats. Well then, would it be better to eat them instead of cows and pigs?
@seethereality says:
“It is amazing to see how people react to this movie emotionally. I am sure those people would react in same manner when they see the culture that people eats dogs or horses or any animals they assume pets.”
Yes, somehow some people such as Sepp Blatter (the FIFA president) and Brigitte Bardot mistake as if all the dogs and cats, if not whales or dolphins, were their pets. Otherwise, how could they delude that they were authorized to order Koreans and Chinese to forbid eating dog meat?
@Steve
“They prefer to hide behind excuses such as “research” despite the whole world knowing this is not true.”
To tell the truth, Japan was forced to do so when the U.S. Government blackmailed the Japanese Government saying that the USA will impose a sanction on Japan if they would not stop whaling. Under such an unfair pressure, what else could they do?
“I support Greenpeace and the Sea Shepherd partly because, after living in Japan for 5 years, I could not believe how scared the Japanese were to show their true colors.”
It is very difficult to show your true color when you are surrounded by fanatists like Taliban or Sea Shepherd.
“The world is starting to realize the Japanese are not the little angels of Asia they would like to be seen as but are much like the Chinese and Koreans – developed nations with practices seen as inhumane by the west.”
Very typical and obvious stereotyping and cultural imperialism. If you are seriously saying that Japanese society is authoritative like Continental Chinese one or North Korean one, you are definitely deluded (and for your informantion, both of them are by no means “developed nations”). If you are talking about Taiwanese or South Korean ones, you are partly correct — both of those as well as Japan are developed nations. And so what? If you insist South Korean or Taiwanese have “practices seen as inhumane by the west”, you are definitely insulting other Westerners, except for those demagogues and liars like Paul Watson.
“You have practices the rest of the world deem inappropriate so just own up to them and stop being cowards.”
You, the West, have practices the rest of the world deem inappropriate: cultural imperialism.
Steve says:
July 7th, 2010 at 9:42 pm@DownWithNewAge
“To tell the truth, Japan was forced to do so when the U.S. Government blackmailed the Japanese Government saying that the USA will impose a sanction on Japan if they would not stop whaling. Under such an unfair pressure, what else could they do?”
Well…they could stop whaling lol. I mean, the research thing is such a playground tactic. It doesn’t fool anyone and it just damages otherwise good friendships with so many countries. Not only does it enrage governments, but it also angers the citizens too which personally is what I think is sadder. Political sanctions are matters between a few people with power. A whole nation of people slowly starting to think poorly of Japanese sensibilities is a far sadder development in my opinion. After spending so much time with the Japanese and enjoying their company so much, I was so disappointed to have those same people cower when asked about such conversation topics, or get so instantly angry and nationalistic when pushed. It just showed me that under the surface, the Japanese thinking has not really changed much in the last 60-70 years.
“It is very difficult to show your true color when you are surrounded by fanatists like Taliban or Sea Shepherd.”
I think what this means is “It’s hard to be yourself when nobody else likes it”. Well, yes that is true…so you need to think “Do I want to continue doing what the world hates and stick by my principles and accept that I will be disliked?” or “Should I abandon a practice now deemed unacceptable in the wider community in order to retain my good reputation”. I think hiding in loopholes and avoiding the truth are not options a country like Japan should be considering. Japan’s international standing does not allow it to be so slippery and it undermines all the hard work they have done to get where they are.
“You, the West, have practices the rest of the world deem inappropriate: cultural imperialism.”
If I am not incorrect you, the Japanese, were also keen for Cultural Imperialism of your own not too long ago and you sound very much like the Taliban, people you only just mentioned you don’t like! If you are scared of a way of life the majority of the world embraces as not necessarily “ideal”, but at least “stable” then you should continue Whaling and maybe give the Taliban a call and see what you can do to stop what you so broadly call “Cultural Imperialism”
Thanks for your comments, they were as I would have expected from an everyday Japanese citizen.
DownWithNewAge says:
July 8th, 2010 at 11:18 amWow, incredibly typical honestly. I almost doubt you are in fact a Japanese right winger who hates “white men” on the whole concerning to the pseudo-issue.
“After spending so much time with the Japanese and enjoying their company so much, I was so disappointed to have those same people cower when asked about such conversation topics, or get so instantly angry and nationalistic when pushed.”
I am also disappointed with your obvious and typical mistake; neither of the research whaling nor the dolphin hunting has nothing to do with “conversation”, because either of Minke whales, which the research whalers catch, and dolphins in Japanese territorial water are by no means endangered. Do some research before blaming others.
“It just showed me that under the surface, the Japanese thinking has not really changed much in the last 60-70 years.”
I think I am a bit more modest than you are, so I won’t mention what the US and the UK did in Iraq. But anyway, you are evidently looking down not only Japan but also China and Korea. Such a naive feeling of superiority of yours are of a century ago, I presume.
“you need to think “Do I want to continue doing what the world hates and stick by my principles and accept that I will be disliked?” or “Should I abandon a practice now deemed unacceptable in the wider community in order to retain my good reputation”.”
To sum up, you are saying that we should unconditionally follow the preference of your “majority.” Very well, you are far more conformist than your stereotypical stupid and barbaric Japanese people.
“I think hiding in loopholes and avoiding the truth are not options a country like Japan should be considering. Japan’s international standing does not allow it to be so slippery and it undermines all the hard work they have done to get where they are.”
Truth??? What is your “truth”? Eating dolphins and whales are bad while cows and pigs are okay? Well, such a “truth” is even more difficult to believe for me, than the “truth” that the world is going to be doomed in 2012.
Steve says:
July 9th, 2010 at 3:41 am@DownWithNewAge I was hoping for a better response than this. Your replies don’t really match with the text you highlighted…it’s quite a “slippery” response. I don’t really have a lot to say about what you wrote, you didn’t really say anything special or different or give me any need to argue my point further. You’ve just reverted back to the Japanese propaganda about cows and pigs etc, which is the most ludicrous of all. I’d like to see how many Japanese businesses would fold if they stopped serving staple foods such as those. The sale of whale meat is by and large not a profitable industry, it’s just a traditional one and would have no impact on the Japanese economy at all. Honestly speaking, if governments WERE to ban the slaughter of livestock, just as if they were to ban smoking, the consumption of alcohol, gambling and all those other things, I would be inclined to simply accept it. They are all activities that we have become used to, but just because they have become acceptable, doesn’t make them right. Unlike killing cows and pigs, killing whales is neither acceptable OR right. Which is how if differs from most other meats.
I currently live in Korea and I lived in Japan. I am from the UK and certainly don’t consider my own country a good role model. I have also lived in Australia and like the UK they are warmongers too. I can’t speak for my government but I can speak for myself and say they have made a lot of mistakes and ruined a lot of lives. Japan is no different – a government and economy in tatters, clinging to small islands and outdated practises because they are stubborn and the wrong sort of proud.
Be ashamed like the rest of us.
DownWithNewAge says:
July 9th, 2010 at 12:42 pm“Your replies don’t really match with the text you highlighted…”
If it seemed so for you, it’s simply because you are not aware of your logical fallacies.
“You’ve just reverted back to the Japanese propaganda about cows and pigs etc, which is the most ludicrous of all.”
I think it’s not a good thing to call something which you cannot counterargue “ludicrious”.
“The sale of whale meat is by and large not a profitable industry, it’s just a traditional one and would have no impact on the Japanese economy at all.”
It’s none of your business.
“Honestly speaking, if governments WERE to ban the slaughter of livestock, just as if they were to ban smoking, the consumption of alcohol, gambling and all those other things, I would be inclined to simply accept it.”
Of course you can. You have a freedom to be a puritan. Simply I and other people wouldn’t follow you. Would it be problematic then?
“Unlike killing cows and pigs, killing whales is neither acceptable OR right. Which is how if differs from most other meats.”
LOL. It might be unacceptable for you, but for us it isn’t. Or do you and other Anglo-Saxons have any reasons to believe that you are living higher standars than Japanese, Norwegians, Inuits or other ethnic groups living on fishery? Absolutely no. Hence, both of us leave each other alone. End of story.
If you insist more, I would say British foods are so terrible that it’s absolutely inacceptable for me. If you are offended to hear it, you should know what you are doing is even worse than this kinds of stereotyping is.
“I can’t speak for my government but I can speak for myself and say they have made a lot of mistakes and ruined a lot of lives. Japan is no different”
Yes, Japan is no different. And then? If you truely understood it, you musn’t have told us what to do and what not to do. What you have been saying is a typical holier-than-though argument like “you are evil, because you make me unpleasant”, “I am right, you are different from us, therefore you are wrong.”
I do hope you are not blaming Koreans for their practice of eating dogs. Personally I will never eat dog meat, but I despise those who try to forbid them to do it.
“a government and economy in tatters, clinging to small islands and outdated practises because they are stubborn and the wrong sort of proud.”
I am sure you were getting information from “The Japan Times” and like, not from Japanese media. If you had done so, you would be aware that this kinds of stereotyping is hilarious. Actually the Japanese politics and economy are in trouble, but it’s clear that that’s not because of such reasons. If things were so simple, everyone must’ve been aware of the cause.
Steve says:
July 10th, 2010 at 2:06 am@DownWithNewAge
“It’s none of your business” – that was my favourite part of your last response lol.
OK, clearly we are not getting anywhere which is no surprise! I respect your steadfast position on this issue and in time of course we will see what the outcome is, both regards international opinion and whether whaling has a long term future. Regards fallacy, well I try to think independently on these issues and think I have enough experience living around the world to not be too biased. I try not to pull my thoughts from newspapers. The ultimate logic behind my thinking is – “Whales are not a viable and necessary food source, they do not make people a lot of people a lot of money, the IWC has by and large banned their slaughter for commercial purposes which suggests the world on the whole finds the practice unacceptable. Japanese people are not willing to openly talk about the issue and this makes them look bad. You’re s**t stinks like the rest of us, so how about just coming out and admitting it. Killing is bad, so let’s try and do it as little as possible. If a majority of the world decided killing livestock was unacceptable, let’s accept what the world thinks. If the majority of the world thinks killing Whales and dolphins is unacceptable, let’s stop killing whales and dolphins. Nuff said.
I am glad that you have responded to what I’ve said openly and I am sure there are many people disagreeing with what I think and likewise many people disagreeing with your thoughts too. Ultimately it is all about numbers – we live largely in democratic times, if the majority rules against you, bow out gracefully and with dignity…don’t cling to something that will damage your well-earned reputation and censor the flow of negative information to your citizens.
Frank Luo says:
July 13th, 2010 at 12:49 amThe Swiss eat dogs and the Poles rend dog fat to spread on bread.
http://www.rjkoehler.com/2004/01/14/and-you-thought-they-just-ate-fondue/
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/poland/5985367/Polish-couple-accused-of-making-dog-meat-delicacy.html
Dog jerky. Dog sausage. Dog I Can’t Believe It’s Not Butter… Europeans don’t exactly look like much of a moral authority on what animals to eat or not to eat to me.
Steve says:
July 19th, 2010 at 8:45 am@Frank Luo
OK, did you actually read either of those links you published?! The Swiss are being condemned for it and the Polish are being arrested….so uhhh….what were you saying?!
Ed says:
July 20th, 2010 at 10:30 pmIt’s a shame to find that most comments and responses to this article & others relating to ‘The Cove’ have completely missed the underlying point to the documentary and the subject in general. Many people argue for their cultural equality and freedom, and their national identity to be respected.
I’m neither from Japan or America, I’m from the U.K. But this is completely irrelevant, what’s more important is that I’m from this world. Amongst the political and cultural discourse that has surfaced since the release of this documentary the humanist and ethical aspect has been largely ignored. Where does such cruelty towards any animal (intelligent or not) belong in this world? We are a species that has reached such a high level of evolution, intelligence and consciousness. Yet we are obsessed with materialism and money. We murder our own kind & slaughter masses of intelligent animals incapable of defending themselves. It doesn’t matter if it’s in Japan, England, America or Iceland, it’s irrelevant. What is relevant is that killing animals in such an inhumane way is wrong.
Those who jump on the bandwagon and start immediately defending their country need to step back and reconsider what they see in that documentary. Infact no, go put on a diving kit and go and swim with dolphin’s, spend just 10 minutes in the water with them or learning about them. The moment you do you’ll realise that they have an intelligence and sensitivity that rivals, if not exceeds that of humans.
I’ve witnessed similar things in Africa with elephants being slaughtered for ivory, or being killed during wars between man. People say “They’re just animals”, they seem to either have forgotten or are ignorant to the fact that Elephant’s have the same life span and pattern as humans & they are much more sensitive, with a better memory & stronger emotions.
The basic point I’m trying to make (and please don’t accuse me of being a westerner who slaughters cows, because I in my eyes where I’m from is irrelevant & I’m a vegetarian) I understand why people feel it is an attack on their national identity, as some people stereotype in their anger towards ‘The cove’. But it cannot be argued that any of these occurrences are natural and humane, they’re disgraceful. It’s not only a disgrace to the Japanese, it’s a disgrace to humanity. The main point of this film is that these creatures are highly sensitive and beautiful. If it wasn’t a disgraceful and inhumane act to kill them then it wouldn’t have been kept under wraps.
Finally I’ve read many comments in a related thread saying that ‘dolphins aren’t the only species to help humans’. I’m not saying this isn’t completely true, because it is. But we must consider that most other animals help humans for some reward, they are trained to. For instance response dogs for people who suffer from strokes, they are trained by being rewarded for responding with treats.
With Dolphins it’s different. In the wild they don’t need to help humans. They gain nothing from it. They could quite easily kill humans and even kill predators from the top of the food chain if needs be. Yet from my experiences they’ll play with you and will make you feel welcome in their habitat & there are numerous stories of Dolphins risking their lives and saving humans in the water.
In the wise words of Plutarch: “To the dolphin alone, beyond all others, nature has given what the best philosophers seek; friendship for no advantage. Though it has no need of man, it is a friend to all men and has often given them great aid.”
Frank Luo says:
July 22nd, 2010 at 1:56 amOf course I read the articles I linked to.
If these practices really are “condemned”, why do they persist? Obviously there is a market for these dog meat products, in other words, certain local communities in Europe support these practices. So where are the undercover filmmakers looking to uncover the trueth behind Fido Brand Margarine and hot-Doggity-Dog Brand Hotdogs? The same reason that these people targeted Japan instead of Scandinavia for whale and dolphin hunts.
As to the UK, the “public condemnation = right” angle has no moral standing whatsoever — thanks to BRITISH PETROLEUM, swimming with dolphins in Florida is not the attractive option that it used to be. If it is wrong to kill a few hundred dolphins a year, it can’t be any better to poison the waters that tens of thousands of them live in for decades to come, starving a great many of those that were not outright poisoned or suffocated when their blowholes are clogged with black gunk.
Yet the British, as a nation, defend BRITISH PETROLEUM with enormous vigor:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/21a94114-74d0-11df-aed7-00144feabdc0.html
Obviously all this moralizing about how when most people around the world think something is wrong, then it’s wrong argument is only ever trotted out when it is someone ELSE’s pocketbook that is under threat, and when it is British dividends and share prices that might have to suffer for a moral wrong, then the UK happily stands against the world and anyone else whose lives and homes they have destroyed. Moral highground? I don’t think so.
As to Plutarch’s quote and the argument that dolphins deserve additional consideration — first, see the above. The UK vigorously defends the entity that has done more to kill dolphins and make them suffer for decade to come than Taiji could possibly do so. Second, dolphins help humans, yes, but how much contribution have they made to the human race? Compared against horses and dogs, should not these other animals, which have contributed mightily to the survival and advance of human civilization, be treated similarly? As much as one might appreciate the fact that dolphins help without expectation of a reward, is that truly sufficient moral ground to hold the lives of a few human beings who would have drwned or been eaten by sharks without dolphins against the benefits that these other animals have brought to human civilization as a whole?
Yet humans raises horses, race them, foxhunt with them, and when they’re done, chop them up for dinner:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-453170/Gordon-Ramsay-urging-Brits-try-horse-meat-em-em-eat-it.html
And yes, I did read the article. In fact, here’s a quote from it:
================================
…
[Speaking of horse meat] “It went well in casseroles, meat and potato pies and was good for a roast, and not at all fatty,” says Barbara Hickman, 83, a retired cook from Aylesbury, Bucks. “I was still buying it from my butcher as late as 1947.
“It would have been tough in a sandwich but I’d have it in a casserole again in a flash – it was lovely and lean – you just don’t seem to see it any more.”
…
================================
There are obviously still some Brits who prefer Black Beauty over Black Angus in their stew pots. So, where is the outrage? Where is the moralizing? Where are the condemnations and undercover film crews? For some reason, instead of that, we have Gordon Ramsay sending people out with horse burgers for people to try. And before you say that it WAS condemned, let me point out that it remains legal to eat horse in Britain, meaning it is institutionally accepted on the national level. No, it is not a widespread custom at the moment, but it is still deemed an acceptable personal choice. The hypocrisy of railing against the killing of dolphins between bites of Sea Biscuit biscuit topped with Hidalgo gravy is more than obvious.
Just another piece of evidence showing that all this moralizing is just a case of cultural imperialism, the completely unfounded assumption that one’s own value system is inherently superior to the value systems of others, and that what one thinks is wrong is wrong for everyone, and everyone else’s culture be damned. And that’s not even taking into account the race factor — that when Europeans engage in the same exact behavior, not much attention is drawn to it, while those from ethnicities that differ in appearance from the moralizing jackass, the condemnations are given additional force, and the people in question are caricatured and slandered with abandon. As if that’s not enough, all of these hypocritical, ignorant attacks that are partially racially motivated are conducted with the intent of FORCING these people to behave the way the proselytizing foreigner wants them to, like good little boys and girls. And when it doesn’t work, instead of examining the approach and the response that it might logically engender, these self-righteous proselytizers only blame the people whom they have attacked and insulted all the more vigorously.
THAT is the point of these responses to the film. To point out that this attitude is what the film was made with, and the kind of response you can expect from the Japanese because of it. To continue to argue the point that killing dolphins is inherently wrong and killing other animals is not is really what is besides the point.
Sal Paradise says:
July 24th, 2010 at 12:08 amI think what Chisa said (quoted above) is exactly right. The outrage about the movie I’ve heard hasn’t been about the content, but rather the approach. The film makers were seen as bullying the villagers, not listening to their side, and not even trying to understand their cultural context.
And I think what Steve said above is the exact type of comment that just isn’t going to resonate. Why isn’t killing whales as acceptable as killing livestock? The original concern was about the fact that many whales are endangered. The Japanese aren’t hunting/eating the endangered types of whales. The whales they hunt are plentiful, and that is why they have permission to hunt some every year.
So if it isn’t hurting the global whale population, or the ability of other countries to have whales around, where’s the harm? The harm comes from people like you who have decided that “killing whales is neither acceptable OR right” based on your own cultural biases. So then you give a blanket condemnation of Japanese diet practices, and there’s no further discussion.
I’ve ridden horses before, and I thought that they were pretty smart and sensitive creatures. I then proceeded to eat horse on a stick. It was pretty gamey, but very delicious. I see no hypocrisy there. I see no moral conundrum there. I am a sentient being. In order to survive (or rather, in order to enjoy some of the finer foods in life), I have to kill other things.
Whether or not an animal is fun to hang around with or not has no consequence in whether it should be eaten or not. I wouldn’t want to eat my family dog, but I wouldn’t really care if dogs (who aren’t pets) get eaten somewhere else in the world.
Maybe I’m morally bankrupt, or maybe I just see that what I find appropriate isn’t carte blanche to impose on the world.
Jessie says:
August 4th, 2010 at 4:15 amMy objection to the practice of killing dolphins is simple: I don’t believe that it’s correct to kill wild animals for any reason other than these two: self-defense, or to eat if you are unable to obtain food any other way. Domestic animals which have been raised to eat are just live crops; they deserve to be treated well like any sentient creature, but their purpose is fulfilled in being eaten.
However, killing wild animals on a mass scale is a bad idea for a lot of reasons. What might they be contaminated with? What effects will their deaths have on other animals in the food chain? Will they be able to recover from their losses or will we bleed them dry? It’s just too risky of a proposition.
Diogenes says:
August 7th, 2010 at 3:57 amI do not have all the facts or any “fact” for that matter, but I am willing to add to this discussion (so please instruct me where I am led astray). I have no instruction on WHAT to do, only HOW things can and cannot be done.
I believe this problem is a simple one of morality. Yet, morality is never simple. There can be many approaches one can take to defend or affirm one’s system of ethics. Those of us who have even once thought about the issues of right and wrong, I am certain, have found it metaphysical and floating in the sky at times. I will not get into whole philosophies AND define them, but I will lay them out for us all to see. In approaching this problem of whether dolphin hunting is right or wrong, we can–as some have–take a Kantian standpoint (that of the categorical imperative), a Ultilitarian one (the hedonistic calculus), a Nietzschean one (the will to power and beyond good and evil), an array of teleological or deontological (duty ethics) stances. But I do not want to bring in all of this because I believe that there is something out there that can appeal to any layman who has any presence in the world as a Being. Instead of trying to define right and wrong void of context and activity as many of us are bound to do (i.e., thinking that right and wrong can be defined and sustained in a timeless perpetuity, that there exists Platonic forms of right and wrong, that there is such a thing as rightness in itself and wrongness in itself), I present to you one that involves the interplay of action and activity, being-with-others, being-in-the-world, being with society. I speak of the language games that Wittgenstein writes about in his Philosophical Investigations. To understand the language game of the Japanese in their usage of “dolphin,” we must first become assimilated in their culture; to talk without having done that is to still think that there is such a thing as a dolphin in itself (rightness in itself, wrongness in itself, and etcetera). Right now, I believe that many of us (those who are BOTH defending and affirming their opinions on morality) are using words in completely different language games (private languages that will find no shared expression). We have yet to become part of one another’s “game”–and so it is natural to think another’s usage not only unconvincing but mad and insane as well. I want to point out that Japan is an island. Further details I am not aware of–not about its trade, its cattle and livestock count. All I can see right now in plain sight (on a map) is that Japan is an island. To put it simply, if one is surrounded by water, it becomes clear after many empirical observations and attempts at survival that the water too will provide much of this island’s food source and nourishment. Thus “dolphin” in the Japanese language, in its most primordial and hidden form, would be interrelated with “food,” a connection that many other cultures will not have. (Here, I am not saying that the only connection “dolphin” has with the Japanese culture is “food”–and if you think so, you have got me all wrong. Here, I also do not speak of moderation and temperance here [such as the proposed idea of killing more than one can eat], for that is another topic.)
I do not have the same means and esteem as those who seem to think that they do–to insert tablets of objective truth into any given soil. I believe that without knowledge and embrace of a particular soil, one would be as foolish as the inept garderner who believes that just seed and water is enough to create productive and agreeable life . . . So one must be a fool to think that such measely tablets will stand for eternity in enigmatic soil. And even more foolish would be those who try to find firmer materials as if under the blind conviction that a tablet’s material is likely to not only influence but DETERMINE its erect standing. (In all cases this will actually work, but with a drawback that acts counter to the cause: Would we then not be dealing with a different plant, a different tablet, now that it has been substituted to MATCH the given soil?) Fools. That is not taking into account the connection and interplay between an activity (a language game) as everything in this world seems to be–activities built upon one another with our consent to be-in-the-world and ultimately to be-with-others. So to continue this discussion with all relevancy, please people, “speak” the same “language” so that we have a chance–however slim–to understand and not think the other completely mad.
My personal opinion on this issue of dolphin hunting is this. Anything that tries to rid the diversity and creativity of an environment is “bad” and “wrong” (a Nietzschean stance), such is why both banning the film is “wrong” and killing off an endangered species is “wrong.”
P.S.
Although it may be too much to ask, please skip the anthropomorphism if you are trying to take any side with dolphins or any animal. They may not “thank” you, but that can hardly be taken as insult either.
Frank Luo says:
August 7th, 2010 at 11:53 am>killing off an endangered species is “wrong.”
Dolphins are not endangered. At least, not the bottle nosed dolphins which the Japanese are killing. They are not even on the speculative “might be endangered if we knew more” list:
http://wildlifepreservation.suite101.com/article.cfm/6_endangered_dolphins_and_porpoise
Most endangered or extinct dolphins are river dolphins. Pollution, much more than hunting, is the cause. Anyone who actually cares about the ecology should be protesting BP instead of Taiji.
Sumomopete says:
August 11th, 2010 at 11:47 amIt’s too bad, I was really enjoying the conversation, but it’s taken a turn on both sides to stereotypes and simplistic willful ignorance, in my opinion. This is a shame. There was a lot more I wanted to say, but after rereading what I wrote, and the conversation up to this point, I can’t find the passion, so I will just respond to a few things.
The JP whaling fleets have internal quotas set for Minke, Sperm and Fin whales all of which they do actively hunt, and how thru a loophole in IWC rules, finds itself in grocery stores around Japan. Fin’s ARE on the “hmmm, they might be in trouble list”
@downwith- you respond to me about the moral issue of eating livestock over say cats, or rodents, and use that as a way to justify eating whale meat. First off, you have a lot of knowledge on the subject but missed this one. Cats and Rodents are actually eaten a lot around the world. Some SE Asian cultures do eat cat, some West African and South American cultures do eat, as well, rodents. So yes, maybe it is better to eat them than cows or pigs.
And the difference between these practices and eating Cetaceans meat (other than a admittedly self centric moral or ethical basis’s) is, those animals can be logically and reliably farmed, they are easily renewable resources. My problem is not the eating of whale meat. My problem, as Steve has mentioned, is the hypocrisy in which the issue is dealt with by the Japanese government and the local government of Taiji I have no ire toward Japanese people, nor even the people of Taiji. IF whaling is a staple and main stay of Japanese culture (which I think we know it is not, nor do most Japanese care), then simply come out and say it, and then act on those principles.
For exactly this reason do you NOT see Inuit peoples getting slammed in public forums for killing whales, that and the fact they don’t use high powered harpoons, or cull 150 animals at a time, weeding out the more desirable ones for “market”. I do not honestly believe you care at all about whaling, I believe you are simply making an argument, because you feel Japan, and its citizens’ are being thrown in a ill fitting light. I understand this as well, I myself Love Japan. To argue that it is a cultural issue and there for sacrosanct from criticism is childish at best. I think if you sit back and think, you can find any number of cultural issues in any number of countries that are both morally and ethically wrong, and that you personally would never support.
SA’s history of oppression and the use of apartheid, America’s and Australia’s long history of oppression and genocide of native peoples. These things are all past cultural issues, that I don’t think you would support, and though not fixed, these country’s have attempted to redress the issue, Sometimes there are cultural issues that are wrong, and it’s important to work toward ending them. But In the end it means little, you can hide behind the wall of persecution, but again, I don’t really think you care at all one way or the other about whaling, I could be very wrong though. It was an interesting conversation for a while there.
@Steve- I think you make some great points, and I agree with you on a lot of what said. Although you were very well spoken, and logical, I think you kind lost me three or four posts in, pulling the direction of the convo away from the act(s), and making it a us or them issue. I know that was not your intent. Still good solid points.
@Chisa- very nice post, you hit it on the head I believe. And I agree with you that although they had a great opportunity to get some dialogue going, they dropped the ball by not being inclusive.
Though this is an admittedly “western” source, its interesting in the context or moral and ethical wrong or rightness to see how some of the system works. Is it biased, probably, Is it a fabrication? I highly doubt it
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article7149086.ece
DownWithNewAge says:
August 12th, 2010 at 11:52 am“Cats and Rodents are actually eaten a lot around the world. Some SE Asian cultures do eat cat, some West African and South American cultures do eat, as well, rodents. So yes, maybe it is better to eat them than cows or pigs.”
So what? Why the hell it is better or worse than something else? Who gave you the authority to say that?
“And the difference between these practices and eating Cetaceans meat (other than a admittedly self centric moral or ethical basis’s) is, those animals can be logically and reliably farmed, they are easily renewable resources.”
Whatever it is, cetaceans or not, it can be “renewable” as long as it is eaten under a scientific control, and there IS a quota which is scientifically set in Japanese research whaling.
“My problem is not the eating of whale meat. My problem, as Steve has mentioned, is the hypocrisy in which the issue is dealt with by the Japanese government and the local government of Taiji I have no ire toward Japanese people, nor even the people of Taiji.”
Hypocrisy??? On what???? A daily business like dolphin hunting is neither good or bad. To say it’s not evil is by no means “hypocrisy.”
“IF whaling is a staple and main stay of Japanese culture (which I think we know it is not, nor do most Japanese care), then simply come out and say it, and then act on those principles.”
We would do it if you dare to say “I eat pork”, “I don’t believe in Allah” in front of a bunch of Talibans and al-Qaedas. For us, Sea Shepherd and its supporters like you are almost the same as Talibans. We’ve already given up to persuade them through logic, because such attempts always have ended up in miserable failures.
“For exactly this reason do you NOT see Inuit peoples getting slammed in public forums for killing whales, that and the fact they don’t use high powered harpoons, or cull 150 animals at a time, weeding out the more desirable ones for “market”.”
So what? All of the points you mentioned are irrelevant from the ethical viewpoint.
“I think if you sit back and think, you can find any number of cultural issues in any number of countries that are both morally and ethically wrong, and that you personally would never support.”
After all, you came back to the stereotypical argument that “whaling is evil because it’s evil.” It IS true that there are “morally and ethically wrong” cultural activities, but no one has ever proved that whaling is one of those.
“I believe you are simply making an argument, because you feel Japan, and its citizens’ are being thrown in a ill fitting light.”
More exactly, it’s simply because I cannot put up with the insanity that incredibly ridiculous arguments pass as “liberal” and “progressive” ones. I hate the European hypocrisy to ban scarf under the beautiful name of “gender equality.” Needless to say, you can still put on a scarf on your free will. That’s one of the most terrible nonsense that I have ever heard. I hate these crusaders in the same way I hate Talibans.
MixedMartialArtist says:
September 1st, 2010 at 5:07 pmI’m Asian w/an education in Molecular Cell Biology & agree w/ Chisa that the film would have a much better effect if they used the former Dolphin fishermen in Futo who became a dolphin protector & launched a successful dolphin/whale watching business instead… the flimmakers have said (and are doing) a documentary on the Faroe Islands in Europe next (also note that most of the West/US also condemns Canada for clubbing baby-seals) ..and boycotts were also what caused all tuna companies to mandate dolphin-safe nets.
Western culture values intelligence & human rights & humanitarian/humane.. which extends to animals that intelligent, animals, self-aware (they recognize themselves in mirrors unlike chickens/ffish that attack their mirror images) –thus, the sale & slaughter of chimpanzee, gorilla, elephant(ivory) & dog meat & dolphin meat/hunting there as those animals have IQs equivalent to a human child & can understand 90+ sign language commands) as well as laws against animal cruelty & clubbing baby seals (spearing dolphins is also cruel since the death is not instantaneous)
Also, in the West, the cattle/livestock are killed INSTANTLY with a the equivalent of a bullet to the head (a machine shoots a bolt/piston into the brain, instantly killing it (brains have no nerve centers & a hard hit to the head causes instant loss of consciousness (as well as loss of memory) ..a gate/door closes behind the cow before it’s done so that the next cows in line DON’T SEE it (so even if a cow had the self-awarenes, they wouldn’t know that they were about to be slaughtered).
that’s the opposite of the dolphins being speared (they do NOT die instantly as the film SHOWS ..only a hard direct hit to the brain kills instantly –the film shows the dolphins just being STABBED in various places in the belly, back, etc)
& having their throats cut while watching the fishermen doing it to their sons,daughters, fathers, mothers, brothers & rest of their family (as they ARE SENTIENT SELF-AWARE & realize the cruelty & slaughter happening to them
Trying to make the “all life is the same, intelligence doesn’t matter” argument making cows, chickens, insects the same leads to the old ways of how soldiers/warriors of all ntions,cowboys, Samurai,etc used to kill thousands of civilians/peasants/Indians/Nanking Chinese for insulting them because intelligent life is no more valuable than an insect so why not kill them if they insult you?
If you don’t value intelligent, self-aware sentient beings more because “all life is the same value” & don’t care about compassion nor being humane, why not slaughter thousands of chimpanzeess/gorills as well as Holocaust, Nanking Chinese, Indians, ..unless you think what makes humans more valuble is not their intellience/self-awareness/sentience but because htey’re somehow special because some god/bible says so? give me some veriable scientific facts other than intelligence that makes humans more valubable?
From an objective scientific viewpoint, intelligence is what gives humans(and dolphins, chimps,etc) the capacity to have social structures/culture(study biology & chimps/dolphins do have complex social structures/hiearchy), understand cruelty, etc and makes them special/more valuable than quashing an insect or mindless fish/birds.
=====
Also, you, Taji, Faroe Islands & any other nation/town are free to continue doing whatever you want within your borders & others in the world are free to condemn it (freedom of speech) AND NOT RESPECT IT (nor them nor you) & boycott them if they want & urge others to boycott them because that was how South Africa finally ended apartheid because they didn’t value black rights either nor treated them humanely) & boycotts also worked for mandating dolphin-safe nets
I don’t recommend boycotting Japanese products since most Japanese aren’t aware of nor support inhumanely killing dolphins.. but if most Japanese are like you & defend/support it, then I’ll boycott Japanse products & urge others to do the same & it’ll be a repeat of South Africa & the dolphin safe nets (both boycotts by the US took years to acheive their effect)
Have a nice day! 🙂
DownWithNewAge says:
September 5th, 2010 at 12:04 pm@MixedMartialArtist
“Western culture values intelligence & human rights & humanitarian/humane.. which extends to animals that intelligent, animals, self-aware […]”
I’m afraid this is irrelevant. Taiji is located in Japan, where Western culture does not neccesarily dominate.
“because intelligent life is no more valuable than an insect so why not kill them if they insult you?”
In my opinion, which I believe is the typical one for an avarage Japanese, killing humans is evil not because they are intelligent but they are of the same species as we are. Homo Sapience is the only species which can be defined as “special” species for humans without any additional assumptions — this is a very simple consequence of logic, isn’t it?
Not everyone should agree with any additional assumptions to define which species are special for us or not, and imposing such views to others is inevitably controversial. For instance, if intelligence were the criteria, it would be allowed to kill mentally handicapped people: in fact, Peter Singer, the ethicist who proposed the idea of “animal right”, concedes it and is sometimes condemned as “Nazi”, especially by handycapped people and their families.
In addition, you don’t necessarily kill creatures which make me unpleasant — or do you kill all the dogs which barks at you?
“the world are free to condemn it (freedom of speech) AND NOT RESPECT IT (nor them nor you) & boycott them if they want & urge others to boycott them”
I don’t agree. Right after Hitler gained the power, he promoted boycott of Judish shops and companies. Of course he did not respect Judish culture and people.
In fact, dolphin hunting is a very minor culture even in Japan and it should be treated in the similar way with cultures of ethnic minorities. If it was allowed for the majority to oppress the culture of the minority only because they dislike it, it would be called discrimination.
I would like to add another thing — you apparently don’t count in Japan, Denmark and Feroe Island in what you call “the world” — is it appropriate?
In my opinion, this issue is not the East vs the West, but the farming-based culture vs the fishery-based culture. The former and the majority, such as Americans, Australians and Kiwis, often claim that it is the universal value that killing wild life is evil and the ocean should be left untouched, but for the latter and the minority such as Japaese, Chinese, Norwegian and Danish, it was crazy and cultural imperialism.
“you think what makes humans more valuble is not their intellience/self-awareness/sentience but because htey’re somehow special because some god/bible says so?”
It is very interesting because many Japanese say the same thing to Americans, Brits, Australians and New Zealanders, because their attitude towards whales and dolphins seems exactly the same as the one of Hindus towards cows.
DownWithNewAge says:
September 5th, 2010 at 12:16 pmJust for curiosity: many people in the anglophone world seem to argue that it is already proven that dolphins are extremely intelligent — is it correct? I have seen many sources which argue such a hypothesis is not proven and some of them even criticized such an idea as “pseudo-science.”
Those are some of them which I have found by googling for a few minutes:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/08/21/stupid_dolphins/
http://www.uncommondescent.com/evolution/dolphins-not-the-supergeniuses-we-thought/
I am quite interested why so many people are eager to believe this.
Another question is this why many argue that thou shalt not kill dolphins because they do good things to humans, but they never say “thou shalt not kill spiders, honey bees” etc. and never mention the fact that dolphins are carnivore and kill and eat many fishes and that they sometimes rape each other.
Sumomopete says:
November 3rd, 2010 at 11:32 amLet it go man. I don’t want to feed the troll, but your voice is being drowned out by the shear weight of the silence of the other posters. Either you made your point. Or you drove everyone away. Regardless, no one is going to jump in here and re-kindle this debate. I hope you enjoyed your self, it was certainly interesting. Have nice day, see you on the next pan-western anti-cultural moral debate topic that is sure to arise.
Zonia Pearlman says:
December 8th, 2010 at 10:25 pmI was wondering if anyone might let me know what the midterm elections could possibly suggest pertaining to free college scholarships. It feels the Republicans will start looking to slash anything they can cut and that in all probability means grants for higher education. Simply put i don’t understand exactly how these people think this country will ever compete, if the cost of higher education continues to climb, although grants end up being harder to obtain. It is depressing to imagine I am in debt $40,000 or even more and not really knowing when I may even find a job opportunity after I graduate in this tight economy.
KoreanPride1114 says:
December 11th, 2010 at 3:02 amIts time for the Japanese goverment to speak the truth about their horrific history. This is the start. The Japanese goverment rewrote all the High school textbook never even mentioning the horrifc atrocities the Japanese has done to us Chinese and Koreans and the rest of hte Asian people!!!!!
-DOWNWITHNEWAGE, wake up!!! STOP HIDING THE TRUTH!!! Some Japanese are now brainwashed by your goverment. refusing to acknowlege the wrongs the Japanese has done in their history killion over 8 million Chinese and countless Koreans. Are you as well so ashamed to admit it just like you do not want to acknowlege the wrongs the Japanese goverment is doing not showing this film?????
Wake Up Japan!!!! Face your history!!!
KoreanPride1114 says:
December 11th, 2010 at 3:10 amThis film is just the tip of the iceberg of how the Japanese hide the truth from its people!!!!
The Japanese goverment needs to tell it people the truth!!! Don’t try to rewrite history! The rest of the world knows what destruction you have left us Koreans and Chinese after World War II. And yet your goverment chose to hide it by rewriting HIgh School history textbooks, your goverment say WWII was to “unify Asia” NO ! You wanted our land!!! Why must you continue to deny it? Your previouse prime minister visitng Yazakuni shrine for hte dead soilders who kill, doens’t bother you?!!!!
Face it! Japanese history isn’t perfect!You japanese goverment tried to invade China through out your history! I don’t want to even go into Korea.
DownWithNewAge says:
December 11th, 2010 at 8:20 amI’m EXTREMELY fed up with that on EVERY controversial issues involving Japan, many fanatic anti-Japan freaks appears and start to denounce Japan talking about its history, even when it is IRRELEVANT to the issue. What is worse, their anti-Japan propaganda is often wrong than it is right.
It’s completely the opposite. A group of nationalists wrote a biased MIDDLE school textbook and the Japanese Ministry of Education told them that they wouldn’t approve their textbooks unless they would rewrite the parts in which they twisted historical facts. The group resisted it but eventually agreed with the request, since their goal was not to publish the textbook but to bring about a conflict between Japan and Northeast Asian countries. Anyway, even the biased one (the Fusousha Edition) mentions about Japanese war crimes.
http://www.je-kaleidoscope.jp/english/text8.html
http://www.je-kaleidoscope.jp/korean/index.html
In addition, what is even more important, their textbook was adopted virtually by NO schools, more exactly by 0.05-0.05% (the value varied by year) of schools.
It’s completely wrong to blame the Japanese Government for this issue, because they did nothing to ban it. The film was not widely put onto screen mainly because most Japanese didn’t (and don’t) see any problem in the dolphin hunting. It’s like Bosintang or your dog soup. It may seem strange outside and not very popular even inside, but no one outside should blame it.
What??? “After” the WWII???
Now it seems like that it is YOU who are rewriting history.
By the way, Korea is also a whaling nation.
DownWithNewAge says:
December 11th, 2010 at 8:39 amI think may be an additional explanation is needed to this part…
I mean, I’m not saying that Japan has never tried to invade China. They DID. But it is completely wrong that they tried to do it THROUGHOUT its history. Such a nonsense is so groundless that I am at a loss how to explain it is wrong.
After Baekje was defeated, Japan was always afraid of the invasion BY China. Their fear was proven not wrong, when the Mongol Empire attacked Japan with China and Korea in the late 13th century. After the Japanese-Mongolian War, Japan became very unstable due to the economical crisis brought about by the war, and during the following three centuries the Government (Shogunate), even when it existed, seldom tried to interact to outside. It is true that Toyotomi Hideyoshi tried to conquer Korea and China after the chaotic era, but anyway his war was not supported by anyone and his rule ended at the same time as his death. The next 250 years of Tokugawa Era was of isolation: Japan maintained diplomatic relations only with Korea, Dutch and perhaps China (non-official one) and was quite reluctant to interact with outside. It was only in 1868 when the rule of samurais was ended.
Anyway, it is very strange to bring history to this dolphin hunting “issue”.
Frank Luo says:
December 11th, 2010 at 1:47 pm@Koreanpride: This is not helping the issue of cultural imperialism. I am sure there is a more suitable forum for what you are trying to say than this one.
@Downwithnewage: I do thank you for informing everyone of the background information on *that particular* incidence of history book controversies, but I must mention that there have been a number of such incidents over the decades, beginning in the 1950’s, long before the formation of the conservative group you are talking about, and that Monbusho did approve books that say “advanced [into]” rather than “invaded”, claimed that the war started only to protect Japanese citizens, etc.
But again, this is not the issue under discussion. I don’t think any specific view or person has caused everyone to cease to post. Instead, I think all the arguments on The Cove have already been presented satisfactorily in the several blog posts and response threads for them, to the tune of thousands if not tens of thousands of words, and the whole thing has kind of just run out of steam.
In my opinion there is really not much to add, and the new posts are mostly just (louder) reiterations of views already presented, or completely irrelevant, frequently incendiary points. It would probably be better if this thread were closed.
DownWithNewAge says:
December 11th, 2010 at 2:16 pmYes, I admit it is true that many (but never have been the majority after the WWII) of Japanese politicians are shamefully reactive and I do believe they deserve to be blamed. But at the same time I do protest to Korean, Chinese and Western media (especially the last one, because I know the former two have good reasons to do so) which are eager to depict as if whole the Japanese people were supporting such reactions or to exaggerate every minor events.
If it were not Japan but, say, the USA or France, they would say “Well, on this issue [for example, creationism, withdrawing from Kyoto Protocol, banning scarfs, expelling Roma people] they are completely wrong, but it is not that they are not right-wing idiots on the whole.” But when it comes to Japan, if there is a single right winger, they would cry “Eeeeeeeeeek! Japan is preparing a re-invasion of Asia! They are sons of Hitler!”, despite the fact that majority of Japanese people don’t support such a move at all.
As many major Western media such as the New York Times or BBC, which is extremely influential, are eager to propagate ONLY bad aspects of Japan, I think it is not so bad to correct their errors, if not lies.
By the way, the New York Times wrote on the recent North Korean attack:
http://finalvent.cocolog-nifty.com/fareastblog/2010/11/post-88a4.html
I would say it’s not too much to call the NYT as “the New York Pravda.” This time it was South Korea, but Japan is always preyed by such liars.
DownWithNewAge says:
December 11th, 2010 at 2:35 pmSorry, the link above should have been this:
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/24/opinion/24wed1.html?_r=1
Anyway, I hope you understand why I could not tolerate the misinformation. It was very typical one and was another tip of the same iceberg as “The Cove”‘s.
To tell the truth, the textbook issue is not worse than “The Cove”, because it is sometimes misunderstood even in Japan (of course no one here believes that the biased textbook is used by every school, but many believe that the Government helped it to be approved.)
Anyway, it is true that some Western media are very fond of the Japanese stereotype as a pre-modern-minded strange Eastern empire and let the Japanese, and that is what I won’t put up with.
Sumompete says:
December 11th, 2010 at 11:27 pm@ Frank Luo – Well stated sir, thank you . two thumbs up.
@Downwith – Your point about the last string of posts being WAAAY off topic, and irrelevant is well said. Let it rest friend you will just pop a gasket trying to be reasonable, and even though you have your national pride (which I DO NOT DISPARAGE at all) it’s not on your shoulders to defend Nippon.
This thread needs to be locked and closed, covered in hot Wax, and buried in a hole.
DownWithNewAge says:
December 12th, 2010 at 7:42 amYou should tell it to KoreanPride1114, not me.
As one who categorise himself as “liberal”, I’m not so happy, to be honest, to be called my motivation as “national pride.” It is the problem of MY pride. Being born decades after the WWII, I am still considered ethically inferior to others, only because I was born in Japan. This “a criminal’s child is a criminal too” like feudal-minded prejudice somehow dominates the world. I would say I and other post-war generation from former axis nations are DISCRIMINATED.
“The Cove” obviously came from this kind of prejudice and essentialism e.g. “Japanese are sadists”, so this is basically another aspect the same problem, in my opinion.
Ronald says:
August 13th, 2011 at 3:22 pmI just noticed something after about the fifth time watchng The Cove. It seems to me the producers of this film had ample opportunity to release the dolphins that were slaughtered in the making of it. Anyone who has seen it knows when and where. Their night missions and the entering into the cove to set up audio and video gave them opportunity. This is only a thought I have…I was not there, so I could be wrong. Even with this observation, I find this dolphin slaughter detestable, without reason, and surely not a “Right or Left Wing” issue. Any person Democan or Republicrat should be appalled.
I don’t eat red meat or pork, not because of the slaughter, but I don’t find it very palatble, not to mention both animals have a detestable odor…alive or dead, they reeeeeek!
I don’t visit Sea World either, not because of the dolphin slaughter, but I just can’t stand to see these marvelous creatures in tiny pools that are not 1/100,000,000,000,000th the size of the oceans, it’s just wrong. I am sure many will disagree with me….please exercise your right to do so.